Jews? What Are We, Chopped Liver?

Scott Raab sits down with Abraham Foxman, the Anti-Defamation League’s national director, to discuss present-day anti-Semitism.

By Scott Raab

Abraham Foxman has been the Anti-Defamation League’s national director since 1987. Polish-born, he was a “hidden child,” given by his parents to his Catholic nanny to hide him from the Nazis. After the war, he and his parents emigrated to the United States.

Myrna Shinbaum is the ADL’s director of media relations and public information. She insisted that she not be part of this story, but, what the hey, she came to the lunch -- at a northern-Italian joint in Midtown -- and Esquire bought. Plus, she had plenty to say. She’s from the Bronx.

Scott Raab, a Cleveland native, has been a Jew since 1952, when he was born. Here, the three break bread and discuss the state of anti-Semitism in the world.

Abraham Foxman: We do polls in Europe, we do polls here. In Europe, it’s very high, classic anti-Semitism. Here, our latest numbers are 14, 15 percent.

Myrna Shinabum: 15 percent.

Scott Raab: Of what?

AF: Are infected -- Americans are infected.

MS: Who hold strong anti-Semitic views.

AF: That’s about thirty-five million Americans.

SR: That’s stunning.

AF: It’s better than when I started at the ADL -- it was 30 percent. There’ve been many changes in terms of social acceptance, but there is an element of political anti-Semitism. One out of three Americans believes that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than to America. That’s a very serious belief. In Europe, it’s twice that much. And one out of two Europeans believes that the Jews control American foreign policy.

MS: Someone once accused us that all we do is count swastikas.

AF: Swastikas are number one --

MS: If they want to intimidate Jews. And if they want to intimidate blacks, they use a noose.

AF: Nooses are now number two. The nooses are in places of employment, interestingly enough -- the overwhelming majority of nooses are found in places of employment.

MS: Swastikas still -- people, they know what it means.

AF: The number-one intimidating factor of hate. But they also use a swastika as a symbol of white supremacy, so it’s much broader. We’ve been accused of looking for them under the bed. I have come to the conclusion a long time ago, we don’t have the luxury of being silent. And if I am to err, I would err to speak out against bigotry and anti-Semitism. [Foxman looks around the restaurant.] What’s her name -- from 60 Minutes?

MS: Lesley Stahl. Sitting here?

AF: Yeah. Two tables down, see?

SR: So where does the professional passion come from? Your childhood?

AF: I guess so. I would say it’s a combination of my upbringing, my experiences. I survived because of Christian love and Christian compassion -- I survived hate because of tolerance.

SR: I know you and Mel Gibson exchanged letters about The Passion of the Christ -- did you two ever meet?

AF: No. He made the issue; we didn’t make the issue. He was the one who said, “I’m gonna make a movie that will tell the whole truth,” and somebody said, “What if it offends the Jews?” He said, “I’m gonna tell the truth.” For six months we tried to deal with him. Everybody said we made the movie popular -- as if millions of Christians went to see it because Abe Foxman said something? Maybe ten thousand Jews went to see it because I said something. Mel Gibson was an icon. He was the most popular, the most successful, and look at him now. The bigotry came out and the American people basically pushed him aside -- and that’s what we’re all about. Sure, you have the right to be a bigot, but our job is to make sure that the American people continue to find it un-American, immoral, un-Christian, and unacceptable, and that there is a consequence. The good news is, in this country there are consequences to people being bigots.

SR: Have you chosen a successor at ADL?

MS: Look, he’s a vital young man.

AF: There was an Abe Foxman predecessor, and there will be an Abe Foxman successor. Before me, people said, “Oh my God, what’s gonna be when Ben Epstein is gone? When Arnold Forster’s no longer here?” You know what? We’re still here, we’re doing the job -- unfortunately, there’s a greater need, so there’ll be somebody else.